What is cancer?

This is the first podcast in this new podcast series called “Treating Cancer The 3E-Way” with Klaus Pertl and Lothar Hirneise.  In this podcast you will hear about the different views what cancer is. We hope your will enjoy this podcast and we would love to get your view on this important question.

Episode 1 – What Is Cancer

Klaus:     The purpose of this podcast is to share our 20 year experience with cancer. And we want to share this podcast, or, increase the awareness of important issues about cancer that most people do not know about.

We do not work against conventional medicine. We are not against conventional medicine. We have a different view about cancer and cancer treatment, which is backed by science and personal experience over the last 20 years, talking to more than 10,000 people with cancer, and personally consulting and helping them in our 3E-program, here in the south of Germany, we’ve worked with more than 1,500 people – one thousand five hundred people – with cancer the last eleven years. So we have gained a lot of insight and knowledge, and we understand that it is somehow – cancer is somehow – a complex issue, or at least it seems very complex, and therefore, we think it – it is not a complex thing, and this is where we want to bring this awareness and also knowledge about cancer, from a different point of view to simplify it, and to also give you practical ideas.

But obviously we are not replacing, this is obviously very important, medical advice, so please whenever you hear this podcast, and you want to do something -what you heard on this podcast – always consult with your doctor to make sure that it is correct and okay for you.

So, let’s start by introducing ourselves, and Lothar, would you like to start, to talk a little about who you are, and how your journey started, how did you start helping people with cancer?

Lothar:   Well, I came to the whole story because a friend of mine had cancer, and I just tried to help him. Then I met Lynne McTaggart, the author from, What Doctors Don’t Tell You,  maybe you know this famous book? And I asked her whether she could help me. And that I could help my friend at the time. This is already 20 years ago by the way. And then, I asked her, and she said to me, “hey, in three weeks there is a big ‘alternative cancer’ conference in London. Why don’t you come over?” And this is what I did at the end. Unfortunately, my friend died exactly at that weekend, and.. but anyway I met all these – at that time for me – a little bit strange people, who spoke about how to treat  cancer in an alternative way. This was a really surprising weekend for me, because this was the first time that I heard that there are so many other alternative therapies, how you can treat cancer. And this is how I came to the whole story.

Klaus:     And, we have to say for everybody listening, in that the two of us, Lothar and myself, both went through this experience, and this is how, we started the organization for people who get cancer in Germany, and then came the 3E-Centre. And our friend that had this cancer then, he went the conventional way, and I think it was for us, Lothar, not something we wanted to get in, right?

Lothar:   Well, not at all. We both had our, like you said, private and business life.  

Klaus:      Absolutely.

Lothar:   And, both of us – you were more in the, the banking business, I had my sports business. And before that I was working as a nurse in psychotherapy. So, cancer was not a part of my life at all.

Klaus:     Exactly. The same for me. And I believe when I’m thinking back at the conference and also the discussions we had, and it was with Frank Wiewel, Lynne MacTaggart, and many of the other doctors that we met at that conference. And I think the two of us in the end sat down and asked the questions, “what if it’s true what they’re saying. What if it’s true, and we just don’t know about those things?” and I think that question kept me going, and I think it also kept you going, and then you made a huge step, by saying, “Let’s do it, and find out ourselves”, and I think that’s how this whole journey started for us.

Lothar:   Yeah, that’s right, I was in a position at the time that I sold my business and I didn’t work at that time, and I had quite more time. And so, and, and like you said, you know, when I met first all these “strange people”, for me at that time in London I was thinking, “Well, there can only be one truth”. So, if they are right, then the others are not right. For a long time it was working really in my brain, and I wanted to know more about it. And this is how I, at the end, came up with the idea, okay, why don’t we go there, and re-see all these doctors personally, and let’s talk to all these people, and ask them, “what have you done to become healthy again?” and this is when we started in1998.

Klaus:     Yeah

Lothar:   Beginning of 98, when we flew to Bahamas, to the IAT clinic, when we flew to San Diego. And then of course, I think, the people who influenced us the most, where the people who had cancer. He showed us all his research he had done in all that time, which was more than ten years, and, well it changed my life, and I think it changed your life.

Klaus:     Absolutely. So, let’s bring it to the present time. Over the next number of podcasts, we will always bring in some of our stories on the journey. But let’s get to the first question today, Lothar. We, we want to bring a little bit more light into the big, big question ‘what is cancer?’. I think there is so much out there and so much confusion, and, and people do get confused, and, and nobody knows it apparently. So, let’s share what our view is, and your view is, “what is cancer?”

Lothar:    Well, I think it’s still the million or billion dollar question. The truth is, nobody knows it. Because, if we would know what cancer is, we would find, quite more easy, a way, how to treat it, how, how to heal people. Let’s have a look maybe first, to the conventional view, ‘what is cancer’. For conventional doctors, or what they teach in universities, it’s just a gene mutation. So they just say, a lovely nucleus of its cells becomes very bad. But, is this really true? I would like to speak here about two small points. Already, the 60s and 70s, doctors like Minz and Illmensee. You know what they did? They took the nucleus of the cancer cell out, and put it in a healthy cell. Most of the time, uh, they did it at a laboratory, that uh took the nucleus out of the healthy cell and then they put the nucleus in, of, the cancer cell. So, you know what happened? Nothing.

Klaus:     Let me get this right. They took basically a cancerous cell, and put it into the center of a healthy cell, and we’re thinking that cancer cell should now affect the healthy cell.

Lothar:     Yes, of course it should! Because this is what the conventional doctors are saying. They say it is a gene mutation, so the DNA became.. let me say.. bad, and, and then of course if you took this cell into another, in a healthy cell, in another living system, this should, become also a cancer cell. But this is certainly, what is not happening.

Klaus:     Wow. This is quite an important understanding.

Lothar:     And, there is another question I really could write a book about it. Because I asked this question many, many doctors, not only Germany, all over the world. And the question is just: Why does our heart, never gets cancer? Think about it, in our heart, we have billions of cells, and –

Klaus:     Yeah

Lothar:    trillions of nucleus and DNA genes. But you know, our heart never gets cancer. So how is this possible? The problem here is: if the theory is wrong, the answers will also all be wrong. And this is the problem here. Because the whole theory of the gene mutation, is just wrong. You know what, what they mix up here, they mistake cause and effect. Because.. what happens here? The pathologist in the hospital, when they look to cancer cells, they always see the changes of the nucleus. And because they always see this, if somebody has cancer, they are thinking, “okay, this is the cause of a cancer”. But, here is the problem: the changes of the nucleus, will come quite later, in a long process. Before, for example, the so called ‘mitochondrias’ in the cells are changing. The, the cell membrane tension is changing. So, many, many things are changing before the nucleus is changing, but the pathologist – these are the people who are saying you have cancer, yes or no, so the pathologist are always seeing the nucleus change, and so they thinking.. this must be the cause of cancer. This is the problem here, at the conventional medicine.

Klaus:     So, they’re mixing up causation with correlation –

Lothar:     Exactly

Klaus:    And they see something.. it’s like, when an alien comes to the world, and the alien sees the fire and a house, and they see the fire, fire man, and the fire brigade, always around the burning house – eventually you could think, ‘well, they must be setting the fire, because they are always around when the house is burning’. And there’s a correlation there, they have to be there at some point, but they’re not causing it. And it’s a little bit the same here. Is it also, then, obviously, the thing we need to become aware of is, if, even the best people with the best intention, base their whole work on an incorrect – or partially incorrect – theory, then, how good can the outcomes be?  

Lothar:     Exactly. This is exactly the problem here. This is what I mentioned before. If a theory behind something is wrong, then of course all the answers, all the advice, all their efforts to find the best therapy, must be wrong as well. What is the biggest problem here? The biggest problem is, because they think the nucleus is destroyed, we can’t do anything for the cell. So, what do we have to do? We have to destroy the cell. And this is exactly what conventional therapy is doing today. They do surgery, they cut it out, they try to destroy it with poisons like chemotherapy. Or, they like to destroy it with radiation. What they don’t understand is, there is a problem with the cell tension. Let’s see some other theories. You know, this is not the only theory. This is just, what they teach at the university. But there are a lot of people all over the world that really thought about, “what, what is cancer?”

Klaus:     Maybe Lothar, let’s focus, because you’re right there are I think. you found at least 20 or 30 different ones. Let’s maybe help the people listening to the podcast, what do you think are the three, four most promising, theories about, what cancer is?

Lothar:    Well, I would say, what do we know today? And this is now science, this is not a belief system. For sure, the so-called mitochondrias – they have a problem in the cells. We, we know this for sure. Mitochondrias are small cells in all our cells. Normally in a cell we have 500 up to 2-3,000s of this small so-called, mitochondrias. And in these cells they are producing the ATP, this is our energy. This is where the energy for living is coming from. For example, I have 75 kilogram weight, so my mitochondrias, normally producing every day, 75 kilograms of ATP. This is an unbelievable system. And, so, in our mitochondrias, we know today, there are a lot of problems: for example, normally the mitochondrias, they using oxygen to produce this ATP. But, in cancer cells, they’re not using oxygen anymore. So, these, this is also very interesting thing, because here, we see also in cancer cells the prove, that the cell can survive without oxygen. In my view, you know, even we know for sure that mitochondrias are having a problem in cancer patients, and there are lots of doctors like Dr. Gerson, Dr. Budwig and Dr Krämer  – all these famous doctors – they wrote books about this. Many, many books about this. But, I still do not believe that this is the beginning, that this is the cause. Then, another theory is speaking about, that conflicts like, for example, Dr. Hamer became here very popular with his so-called, ‘New Medicine Theory’. That conflicts are playing a big, big role. But this of course is for conventional people, only a crazy story, a crazy theory, because they can’t accept that the psyche can create cancer. For them it’s a terrible thing. And then a lot of people, are saying that parasites are changing the cells, or the parasites are helping to change that the acidic base balance will change. But for me my most favorite theory I would say, comes from a German doctor, her name was Dr. Waltraud Fryda, and she is just saying that the two hormones, adrenaline and insulin, are playing a big, big role here, and the more stress someone is having – and here it’s important – the stress can come, for example, from poison, but the stress can also come from, let me say, normal conflicts people are having. And she explains in her book that stress is maybe the main cause of cancer.

Klaus:     Yeah, I think we both met her, and she was an amazing woman

Lothar:     Oh yeah

Klaus:    I think she measured the adrenaline level with the people she treated in her medical practice, as a medical doctor, and she measured the adrenaline level, and it was very, very low. And she was wondering why that is. And it was clear in her understanding, because they used it up because of stress in their life.

Lothar:     Exactly. She was really surprised because, you have to understand, she worked in a cancer hospital in Bavaria, in the south of Germany, and by the way, in the famous hospital of Dr. Issels. He became a very famous doctor, also, in America, because later he moved over to California and Mexico, and it’s how she worked there. And she thought of course, most of the patients that are final stage cancer patients, so she thought that “they must have a very high adrenaline level”. And she was totally surprised when she measured it, and that they had a very, very, low adrenaline level. And you have to understand what happens here. Normally you know, you have adrenaline, who brings the sugar out of the cells, or is helping to bring the sugar out of the cells is correct. And then, of course, you have insulin, which is bringing sugar into the cell. So, if you now have no, or nearly no, adrenaline anymore in the body, the sugar stays quite too long, or too much sugar, stays in the cell. And now, the cell has a serious problem, because even the cell love sugar, but if it’s too much sugar, the cell will die. So the cell has to find a way to get rid of the sugar. And what is the cell doing, stopping the oxygen going into the mitochondrias. And now, the cell can burn down 20 – 30 times more sugar. So this is a highly intelligent system. Like I always say, you know, for me I use the term “Kausanetik”, for me, an illness, or a cancer cell, is nothing else than a regulation system. So, the body, or here the cell is regulating something. And here is just a problem of too much sugar. The cell is regulating it, because otherwise the cell would die. So it burns down, and the best way is to do it without oxygen. So you can see, a cancer cell is not something which wants to kill somebody; a cancer cell is very high intelligent system, in the beginning, is helping you.

Klaus:    Lothar, this is for me personally, when I had my biggest breakthrough. Once we realize that cancer is an intelligent, purposeful, thing.. obviously, nobody likes it, but there is an intelligence behind it, and it has a purpose. And once you understand what the purpose of the cancer cell is, may- for example, regulating the system like a second liver, helping the body to overcome issues that, we are not aware of, then, I think, the whole view about cancer changes, and I think especially, we stop being the victim of cancer, and really following the natural way of life which has always purpose. And even things in nature, where we think it has no purpose: it does have purpose. And the same in the body: it is a highly intelligent system, and it does it with purpose. And I think, that is a big, big freedom, and for me, a huge revelation and break though. And it makes it so much easier to then deal with it in a positive way, rather than in a frightening, aggressive way.

Lothar:    Absolutely. And, there, there also comes a very important point here. As a cancer patient, you will not be another human being who has to stay passive, at home, has just to take some, some infusions, some medicines from a doctor. If you understand the whole system, that cancer is in the beginning – I always use this word, it’s very important – in the beginning is helping your body to regulate something; if you understand it, then you can look for the cause – what is wrong in your body, what is wrong in your life –  and then you can look for that. And if you change it, the cancer will go. And this is a totally different way of thinking, because at the moment, what the conventional doctors are saying “you as a patient, you can’t do anything about it .. the only thing we can help you, is destroy the cancer cells – the tumor normally – and that’s it”. But this is not true. If you don’t go for finding the cause, you have no possibility to do something active. And this here is big difference. In conventional medicine, the patient is just passive. But in, in, let me say, if you think in a different way, you can be a very active patient to become healthy.

Klaus:    And I think, for the first podcast today, this is what we want to share with you. That there is a definitely a different view that can really help and empower you. So, for more information, if you want to find out about our program, where we deliver the program, please go to our website www.3e-centre.com.  Thank you Lothar, and the next time we will talk about why people get cancer. And I’m looking forward to it, and thank you and goodbye to everybody.

Lothar:     Goodbye. 

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